Southside, an “undesirable” neighborhood for many, is a vibrant community that is used as a laboratory for the many environmental issues in Syracuse. From being cut-off from the rest of Syracse by the interstate, to the waste water treatment plant Southside is a neighborhood with numerous environmental justice issues. Originally from Nebraska, Forrest Teske, a Southside resident, environmental activist, and core organizing member of the Syracuse Democratic Socialist of America, discusses the issues and stigmas regarding Southside. Listen to our podcast to learn more! You can find the podcast here!
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An interview with Lemir Teron, a Professor at SUNY ESF, to get his perspective on environmental racism in the greater Syracuse area. Interviewers: Sarah Trick and George Geleta Transcribed by: Mila Castelan Sarah: Can you tell us a bit about yourself and your qualifications? Prof. Teron: This is my second year on faculty in the Environment Studies department and,as for my background, I look at these things as an urban planner. I’ve worked in one of the more significant urban planning departments in the country, so these are ideas and issues I’ve looked at; not just from a theoretical perspective, but I’ve written a couple of laws, just in terms of community development and planning. So, when you’re talking about Syracuse, NY and environmental inequality, this is a testing ground, test bed, for so many issues, I think, that you have talked about in some of your classes. Unfortunately, we are in a city that’s a laboratory, a ground zero, for so many environmental issues. Whether it be the history of Onondaga lake, lead concentration in housing, concentrated poverty (meaning where do poor people live in Syracuse). Typically they live around other poor people, and there are social consequences to concentrated poverty, whether it be through diminished social networks or access to different opportunities. That's sort-of my background and some of the positioning as to where this research can go in a town like this. Sarah: How do you personally define environmental racism? Prof. Teron: Environmental racism [can be looked at in] a couple of different ways, but it’s either A) the targeting of environmental bads towards communities of color(and when we are talking about communities of color, we are talking about Black people, Latino people, [and] Asian people in the U.S context.) The targeting of environmental bad towards these communities, but also [B)] the height in proximity from goods. So when we are thinking about where we build green space or where we design our green space, where we put environmental amenities, it's not enough to just say that people of color have a height in proximity to bad things, waste treatment facilities, [and] toxic living conditions. You have to go to the next step and say, well do we also have height in proximity from the good things to go along with the increase exposure to the negative forces? Sarah: How do you think environmental racism ties into environmentalism as a whole? Prof. Teron: Well historically, the formal environmental movements haven’t done a great job looking at issues of inequality. Every year-or-so, there's a report that comes out by a professor up in the University of Michigan, I think it is, and she looks at the hiring practices of environmental organizations and she looks at these practices from racial lines. So what you are seeing is, historically, and even into 2018, organizations haven’t done a good job. Maybe they talk about environmental justice in missions statements or maybe there are some vague notions of inequality or addressing exposures that vulnerable or marginalized populations have. But when it comes to hiring, not just at entry level positions, many environmental organizations haven’t done a good job of reflecting communities of color. They haven’t done a good job of having poor persons reflected in too. Not just in membership numbers, but in management, mid management, and upper tier management. So when it comes to the decision making apparatuses of these organizations, do you have people of color in responsible positions, not just a person who is administrative? That's not to diminish administrative work but, do you have the potential for people to climb the ranks of these organizations? Or do you get hired to answer the phone and that’s it? When you look at the track records (and certainly not every organization is the same) but I think the research out there suggest that the environmental movement needs to do a better job, not just talking about these issues, but in taking actions with these issues in looking at the hiring practices of organizations. Sarah: Talking about actions, have you seen it evolve in any way since you’ve been involved? Prof. Teron: Yeah, definitely! I think, America in general, my grandfather's America isn't my America. Meaning that his experiences, 60, 70, 80 years ago as a boy were very different than my experiences as a boy. That's not to say that there hasn't been evolution and progression in the right step, but with that being said, do we have environmental equality that is perpetuated regardless of race, creed, color? Certainly when we are talking of environmental justice or injustice, it’s not just a racial issue, although racial implications are probably the most profound in a setting like this. We also need to be concern about gender implications. So what are the height and exposures that women have, either in our society or if we look at the issue more globally? If we go to some other societies, there are probably some more dastardly, or stark, gender implications. So, when we think about environmental injustice, let's think of it in racial terms (can’t avoid race), in economic terms (can't avoid economics), but we also need to be thinking about this in terms of gender. Do women have full entree to environmental space, environmental equality? And in turn, do they have heighted exposures to environmental malities? George: What you do you think the root of environmental racism that is still present in our country would be, in your opinion? Prof. Teron: So, what are the roots -- multiple roots of environmental racism, enviornmental inequality? So, I’m reading a book with one of my classes right now called Garbage Wars and it is by a brilliant scholar named David Pellow. Essentially, this text is about environmental justice issues in Chicago, but we can extrapolate and think about this more broadly. Essentially, the garbage wars are about keeping your trash out of your neighborhood and downstreaming it somewhere else. Meaning, I don't want a landfill in my backyard, let's make that landfill out of sight, out of mind. So what the heck does that have to do with environmental justice? Whether we are talking about garbage [or] hazardous waste, you have concerted efforts from many established communities. Whether it be rich wealthy white communities or in some cases, we were looking at a case study today, [about a] relatively poor white community in Appalachia, Tennessee, so you have concerted efforts to keep hazardous waste out of rich communities, white communities and oftentimes, where does waste end up? In poor black communities. One example would be Chester, Pennsylvania. Which is this iconic town for environmental injustice. So you are talking about a very high poverty rate in Chester, I think the black population is 70%. So you have this cacophony of locally unwanted land uses. And one thing they do in Chester very well is that they incinerate waste. They aren't just incinerating local municipal waste or waste from the local county, but there is actually waste being produced in New York state, that is shipped down to Delaware that ends up in Chester, Pennsylvania, where it is incinerated. So, you are talking about a local population, maybe there is some jobs associated with the incineration, but it is incinerated in Chester. So when you are talking about incineration, production of particulates, [and] the local health implications of having trash incinerated in your local poor black community, it's not just incinerated, ultimately it is incinerated and you have electricity that is generated and sold to the Atlantic City electric company. So let's think about that supply train. Trash produced in New york, if it’s produced in New York, why isn't it retired in New York? Why are we New Yorkers sending our waste to Delaware to be processed and shipped to Chester, Pennsylvania and then ultimately the electricity is sold to a company based in southern coastal Jersey? These are the dynamics in play when we are talking about environmental injustice. Sarah: Do you think that ties into the midland wastewater treatment plan in SouthSide? Prof. Teron: I’ve had interactions with a number of folks who were on ground zero, I wasn’t living in Syracuse at the time, but I know some of the people who were involved in resistance efforts to the midlands facilities. And, I think that when you look at the demographics [and] positioning in other places that potentially could of been sited, or could of been sighted in addition to, I think there is no question that there are environmental injustice implications to the Midlands treatment facility situation. Sarah: Do you know if it has had any effects on the people of onondaga population? Prof. Teron: I can’t speak specifically to the effects of Midlands and local indigenous populations. I think the best thing to do research/ask that question further would be to talk to folks that are associated with the nation. That’s not to say that you cannot talk to somebody outside the nation about these issues. I think it would be more appropriate; when we are talking about Midlands, talk to somebody that lives on the Southside of Syracuse, when we are talking about issues that are so consequential to the health of native/indigenous communities, let's make sure that we get these folks to the table. Not so that we just exploit people, put a microphone in someone's face just to extract information for our own purpose. I'm not insinuating you doing that. But, do we have indigenous friends that we can get to the table and let them answer that questions for themselves? So are there some implications? I just don't know. Sarah: If you had anything you wanted to tell the Syracuse community regarding the treatment plan, what would it be? Prof. Teron: Lets not look at the treatment facility in isolation. We have to look at it in context of so many other issues of environmental inequality in this town. So that's not to say that when you're addressing an issue, you shouldn't be very targeted and focused, but we’re not going to ameliorate these conditions if we just look in, well I got a victory in waste treatment, no this stuff supersedes just one finite area. Just keep in mind the end game, and that’s ubiquitous environmental inequality. Don't look at these as isolated situations, let's look at these as trends and exposures that disproportionately harm vulnerable and marginalized people. Sarah: What do you feel is the trend wise is the most pressing issue for Syracuse? Prof. Teron: Just this weekend, this is not the first time I saw it, but I saw a poll and Syracuse, Ny was ranked in the top thirty cities to live in the United States. I think, when I looked at the list last year, it was 38. So, let's reconcile, top thirty city to live in; simultaneously top concentrated poverty levels for black and latino communities. How can it be top 30 for some folks and at the sametime functionally, I don't think anybody living in concentrated poverty would argue that this is a top thirty city because that means [they] have entree to the financial sphere, academic sphere, and health care complex. So, how can we reconcile these two things? That's not to say that they can't exist simultaneously, but lets keep our eye on those two seemingly contradictory forces. Sarah: Do you think that the interstate has led to that divide in anyway? Prof. Teron: I don't know if it has led to a divide, [but] it has certainly reinforced a divide. So there were racial and economic divides the predated the interstate, absolutely, but when you are talking about literally tearing up a neighborhood and social isolation, I think that it has reinforced that dived because when you look at where we put our interstates and highway projects we also have to ask which communities are expendable and off the table. There are certain communities that you wouldn't even pretend to speculate that we would put an interstate there, they are just protected from the jump start. I don't know if its created a divide but its reinforced some communities [that] are vulnerable, prey, expendable and others are safe from that type of partitioning. George: Can you explain to us your understanding of the proposed highway options and what you think would be the best option? Prof Teron: [In terms of what’s the best option], I can't answer that question in its totality and I’ll tell you why. In short hand, you have two options that are on the table and it looks like a third option is being reintroduced. You have a community grid option, which all [options] involve leveling the current incarnation of the interstate because it has reached, like the engineers say, the end of its useful life. Meaning that if we allow this thing to persist, eventually, you’re talking about severe structural damage that can harm and kill people. One option [is the] community grid option, scrap the interstate model and basically put city streets. So no longer are you driving through a downtown fair, you will now be driving downtown in a community scale street. Second option is scrap[ing] the interstate [and] put[ting] up another interstate. And the third option, which was initially on the table, but due to projected cost it was taken off. [However,] it seems like some powerful forces are trying to put that option back on. Let’s have a tunnel option, I think that the tunnel option is a combination on street grid level or street scale you going to have a community grid, but you are also going to continue to have an interstate but instead of a viaduct or a bridge, now the traffic is going to go under the city. So you are going to have a city level street and then under that city you're going to have extensive tunnel infrastructure. Now, which is the best way to go about this? I have some ideas which I think are apropel for 21st century development and thinking. But ultimately, you can't responsibly answer that question until something happens. And if you remember when we were in class together, do you remember when I said what we don't have yet to make the most informed decision possible? Sarah: The eco statement. Prof Teron: Yeah. For each one of these projects, the department of transportation is going to put out an environmental impact statement talking about environmental, social, and economic impacts. But you can't make an informed decision unless you have the most complete information as possible. Now, I can pretend to know what the environmental impacts for each one of these options are, but it's impossible to make the most informed decision if you're not informed with the most extensive information as possible. Apparently, this environmental impact statement was supposed to be out, maybe a year ago, and then I heard some talk that it was going to be released late 2017. It's almost March of 2018 and this document still hasn't been released, and we are looking to put the tunnel option back on the table, so that would lead me to think that it would take even longer to have a comprehensive statement done. At some point that interstate is going to have to be retired and hopefully, we have a robust thorough screening of these impact statements before we have any serious decision making that gets done. Sarah: Is there anything most people probably don't know about the impact of the interstate on lower income communities? Prof. Teron: Well, I would say live near an interstate and think about some of the consequences of living next to an interstate. So it's not just things that we think about that are easily accessible, the particulate matter that gets associated with it, but think about something like noise pollution. What does it mean to have an interstate literally in your backyard and what types of noise pollutions become normalized [and] well adjusted to or maladapted to? It just becomes the soundtrack of your urban existence. Walk in the shoes [and] live in the shoes of somebody that has one of these projects in their backyard. Sarah: Are you currently working on any projects to help solve these issues in minority communities? Prof Teron: I've been working with Southside TNT. So the way that the city of Syracuse's neighborhood planning is developed, planning clusters are split into TNT units which stands for Tomorrow's Neighborhood Today. We did a function in spring time of 2017, [it] was a community hearing so you had different interest who came to the public in a very much community based setting. You had folks who were representative of suburban forces, they like the status quo, they want to keep their status quo. You had somebody with the department of transportation. I was representative of ecological or environmental interests, so I was talking to the crowd and taking questions from the audience about what are some of the environmental implications. I've been involved with that for about a year now and we continue to do work together. There is a local environmental law firm that has expressed interest in the work and we are trying to put somethings together that aren't just reactive. You don't just want to be absorbing punches and just say that this is bad, bad, bad. You want to have some type of legitimate paragomal. These are the principles we are operating off of and this is our vision and our strategy for the community. You don't want to position yourself where you are just reacting to things. And I'm looking to do some work with this environmental law firm to see how we can create some that has imagination that is going to lead to a less stratified Syracuse over the next generation or two. Sarah: Do you have any idea on how this idea of Syracuse can better engage with the citizens of Southside? Prof Teron: We have some very powerful forces in this city, in this campus, [and] right next door. I would like to see some more interplay between the southside and this educational industrial complex. I've been teaching in this school just for two years, going on my second year. I'm not sure I have ever taught a student that actually matriculated from southside that ended up going to school at ESF. Part of this conversation needs to be, well there are kids that are going to the local school systems, many are graduating, do they ever end up on these campuses? Is that totally the responsibility of the local government? Absolutely not, but there needs to be more interplay between what's going on. We are talking about a neighborhood that is literally, we can almost throw a baseball and hit that neighborhood. Why don't we see a lot of interaction between those neighborhoods? I mean, we see a lot of interaction when it comes time to be studied, examined, maybe a community grant is tied to it, but are we getting kids in our classes from these places? Do people who live in these communities end up working for institutions like this in some type of professional capacity? I'm not talking about cleaning up or a temporary gig, do you ever see folks from those communities that end up in the brass of these communities, whether we are talking about the academic institutions, health care institutions, these are important questions Syracuse will have to answer if we think that the lingering inequalities is something that is worth resisting [and] ultimately dismantling. Sarah: Do you think people of Southside feel like they don't have a say because of the business first aspect of Syracuse politics? Prof. Teron: Are there people in southside who feel that they are disenchanted? Absolutely, but my interaction with the community, I think, in some respects [is] a very vibrant community. So of course there are headaches and roadblocks, but I think you are talking about a vibrant and functional people, peoples in plural. So, is there disenchantment with political process? Absolutely, but I think you will see disenchantment in any community in the city or even in the suburbs outside of town. Is there a legitimate cause of concern or heighten levels of concern due to some of the economic attachment? I would say so, but I don't want to downplay that part of town as if everybody is cynical and negative because I think there are some locally positive people that are doing some strong community driven work that ultimately has an endpoint of empowerment. We aren't just a recipient of what's happening from the city of Syracuse, we control our trajectory. Now are there external forces that can dictate or influence some outcome? Absolutely, but I think there are some people down there doing some serious work that is based on self empowerment, community empowerment, [and] altering the trajectory of the community. Sarah: Are there any other people who are experts on this topic who we might consider taking to? Prof. Teron: Yeah, there are people in Marshall hall that are doing work and I can definitely point you in the direction of those people. I was just watching the news the other day and there was one of my coworkers who was at a local community form on television. And I saw him leading a conversation at one of the local suburban community meetings. I can definitely point you towards some resources on campus and off campus. I shared preliminary source with you off campus. You remember you had a speaker in the intro class, she came in, and she is one of the ladies doing some community driven work. There are definitely some resources that i can put you onto that may be helpful not just for this project, but as you're thinking about where Syracuse is going to navigate towards outside of the interstate. Some people are doing some positive work [and] if I could do anything to give you some entree to those folks, I would love to do so. Sarah & George: Thank you for your time Prof Teron: Thank you! |
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